How can I get reflection in the glass

Raylectron (http://Raylectron.com) is a 3D rendering engine for Trimble Sketchup (http://sketchup.com)
Nick1
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How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

Hi Michael,
I first assigned Sketchup translucent material to my windows and changed the setting in Material editor to glass. But when I want the glass to reflect the other objects(exterior shot for instance) in it the Glass setting goes back to "0". Then I tried assigning the same window with a new Sketchup material(solid color,white) and then changed the settings again in Material editor to glass and when wanted the glass to reflect, the glass setting goes back to "0" and my windows render as the color I assigned them. In one of your before and after pictures, there is a dining table and 6 gray color chairs. You can see the reflection of one of the chairs in the glass and the glass actually shows itself through the help of the reflection. How do you get reflections in the glass and full transparency at the same time and how long did those renders take?

Thanks in advance,


Nick

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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Support »

Hi Nick,

When you set the material to Glass, reflection is automatic because it is not based on the same formula as a mirror. So there is no need to set the reflection value, only the transparency (I use 0.98 or 1 for windows). Just make sure that your window has a thickness to it and that all the sides are facing out (front faces out and back faces in) and the result will be the same as in our screen shots.

The time in Raytace mode is less than a minute in average, but you need to let it run until you like the result (grains from shadows are gone and anti-aliasing is nice).

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Michael
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Nick1
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

Hi Michael,

Thanks for getting back to me. The attached image was done prior to my question and I had done as you instructed with the faces of glass out and the thickness to the glass and so on. This image took almost 1/2 hour and you can still see the grains on the wall, and the glazing(windows) in the back of the room doesn't have a clear look like the glass on your website images. What am I doing wrong?
Thank you again,

Nick

P.S. How do Iinsert an image, which is on my desktop, here? I clicked the "img" button but it only gave me couple of brackets with the flashing cursor line between them.

Nick1
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

Hi again,

It would have been nice if the "insert image" button would actually open a dialog box and one could select an image to insert as oppose to brackets and so forth. It seems to me that would be easier but then again I could be wrong.
Thanks,

nick

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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Support »

Hello Nick,

To upload an image, look below the message box where you typr your message. It has 2 tabs (Options / Upload attachment). Click on Upload attachment and you can upload anything you want, image, .skp files, whatever. The img tag at the top is if you want to include a link to an image.

I'll take a look first when you upload them before I answer anything so I can better see the problem.

-Michael
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Nick1
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

Hi Michael,
I guess I spoke too soon. Didn't even notice the Upload Attachment tab. Thank you for pointing it out. Here is the image.
Thanks again Michael,

Nick
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Garo_s_Office2.jpg

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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Support »

Nick, Can you tell me the scan settings you used? Raytrace? Pathtraced? True Shadows? Ambient Shadow? etc.

I'm not sure where the light comes from, but I think you have "Sun" selected?

Is the glass gloss value maxed out? Does it have a material? Transparency set very low instead of 1?

Any interior lights or it is just suppose to use the Sun/Sky for lighting?
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Support »

Nick, can you email me the skp file? If not, no big deal.
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

Hi Michael,
Thank you for asking those questions. Now I can find out if I did things the right way.
1- The scan setting was "Raytrace".
2- Since it was an interior shot I used "Ambient Shadows".
3- Yes, Sun is selected since the light is coming in through the windows.
4- For the glass value I clicked on this button which already has settings for few different materials one of which is glass and that is the one I selected.
5- No interior lights. Just Sun/Sky for lighting.

Attached is the skp file. It is a big file. About 35 mb. I am not sure if such a large file can go through.

Thanks Michael,

Nick

P.S. I kept clicking on the submit button but nothing happens. I guess the file is too big! So no skp file.

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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

I forgot to mention. Yes the transparency I used was 1.
Now couple of questions for you.

1- What is the file size limit that you can receive. I know through my email account I can email 10 mb or through yahoo at 25 mb. But I have no idea how this works.
2- How would you do a Chrome material or Gold material for a metal object? There is no Chrome or Gold material in Sketchup as far as I know.
3- Is there a possibility to have all sort of ready materials like( Chrome, Gold, Silver, etc...) included in the software so making everything faster?
Thanks Michael,
Nick

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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Support »

Hello Nick,

For your scene, I think you should use Path tracing with only the Sun and Sky as lighting, Direct illumination and Shadows. Your glass material set to pure white (255,255,255) and transparency to 1. This is what we used for the screen shots we've made.

Tip: If you are viewing your model with the back wall removed, you don't have to. You can keep the back wall visible and use X-Ray level = 1 in the render window. Here's how we do it. Hide your back wall so you can position the camera to view the interior from the right position. No need to set the FOV to 55 to view more because you are now outside. Before you render, make the back wall visible and bring up the render window, then set the X-Ray to 1 (or 2 if your wall has 2 planes) and then start the render. It's really cool, and we keep our camera FOV to 35 (human eye). Most of he time, people think they have to position the camera in a corner and set the FOV to 55 or even 75 to see the entire room. No need to do that, put your camera outside and use the X-Ray to render through walls. Those walls will still show in reflections like in mirrors.

1. My email is just about unlimited size. But maybe the best is to attach it to your post like you did the screen shot? Or send it to me via the board PM?

2. To do a chrome/gold material, you need to experiment to get the right settings. Basically, you set the color and the Shininess and maybe, the glossiness as well if you don't want it too polished. When you have the right combination, in the Raylectron window in SketchUp, click on the "Save as global" before you click on Apply. This will save the material name and settings to the registry, and when you create a new material and named it the same as one previously saved, the settings will be assigned automatically. In the next version, we will have a drop down list to select from those globally saved ones.

3. We are working on that already.

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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Support »

The board was set to 20MB file size limit! I changed it to 200MB. You can click on the PM icon to sent me a private message and attach your skp file to it so nobody but me can download it.
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Support »

Nick, now that I think of it, did you assign the glass material to both (front and back) faces of your window? If your window is a push/pull rectangle, it has 6 sides, so 6 front faces and 6 back (inside of the rectangle) faces. The way we do our windows is to not assign any material to those faces, we group them, and then assign the material to the group. That will do both front and back faces all at once.
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

Hi Michael,
Thanks again for your help. Here is the way I did the glass. I first created the glass areas by using rectangle tool. the material is default material at this point. then I push/pulled each surface back couple of inches. At this point I assigned Sketchup Translucent material(the light gray color) to all the glass areas. Then I double clicked on each surface and grouped each surface individually. Then after I edited each group by push/pulling it back about 1/4" as the thickness of the glass. This way all 6 sides of the rectangular cube would be translucent material. Then I made sure to reverse the faces by using the reverse face tool in Raylectron. I even tried assigning pure white color(Sketchup white color) to all glass areas and using the Material Editor, changed all the white color objects to glass using that special predefined button. But the results were the same. I'll try it again using the RGB numbers and see how it will render. As a matter of fact I will make a similar room in Sketchup with windows and assign material as you instructed. I will place an object in the middle of the room to see if there would be any reflection on any of the glass areas. Then I will render it for different time intervals and upload them here along with the skp file since it would be a small file size. Then you can be kind enough to tell me what I am doing wrong.

Nick1
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

Hi Michael,
I did a simple room with 4 windows to the front, one big rectangular window to the left and a circular window on the right view. I went to the process of thickening the glass as mentioned before and assigned the pure white color to all as you instructed. Then changed some settings for the glass in the material editor as instructed and rendered. When the rendering showed up only the tall left window was letting light in and there was no light coming in from the other ones. I checked the skp file and checked all the settings for all the windows and sure enough they were all the same. Rendered couple of more times for a minute or so but the other windows didn't show up.
Then I went back to the skp file. Deleted the right 3 vertical window groups. Made three copies of the left vertical window group and placed them on the other three vertical ones. These all have pure white per RGB 255 for all vertical ones along with the circular one. I then assigned Sketchup light gray Translucent material to the left big rectangular window and did all the settings for all material, used Path Tracing rendering mode as instructed. I saved three images. one at 1minute 4 seconds. The second one at a bit over 2 minutes. And the third one at a bit over 10 minutes. I can see a bit of reflection of the object in the middle of the room but somehow the glass still looks frosty light gray and not clear clear light gray(by the way, the circular window never rendered as glass). Is is due to the glass not having a frame or having nothing behind it?
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room-10-4.jpg
room-2-3.jpg
room-1-4.jpg
Last edited by Nick1 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

Here is the skp file. I attached this along with the images but I have no idea if you received it or not.

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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Support »

Nick, did you attach the SKP file the same way you did the images?
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Support »

Nick, I've enabled to upload skp files! it was not. Can you try this test model?
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Support »

One more thing to remember Nick, if it's very bright outside, there will be very little reflection on the windows inside. If it's brighter inside, you will have much more reflection, like real life.

But I've noticed on your screen shots that we don't see outside! Is that because only one face of the material is set to glass and transparent?
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

Hi Michael,

All side of my windows are glass material. Maybe I am wrong in this case but as I mentioned I tried assigning a SU translucent material to the left big window and pus/pulled it back 1/4". So that means all the sides are translucent material. I also tried pure white material and then push/pulld the front vertical ones 1/4" back so all sides were pure white and then I edited each material in material editor.
I noticed that in a sample model you uploaded for me, the glass material seems to be the SU default material( if you edit the left big window and click the inside face and right click to see the entity info it shows a default material for the window and not a pure white material). But when I assigned the windows pure white with transparency at 1, the windows in model view didn't look like yours which shows no color as if it is an opening. Also I noticed that your window thickness is at 1". Is this on purpose or you just wanted to give the glass a thickness, or does a thicker glass give a better rendering effect?
I tried uploading my model exactly the same way as images, but somehow it wouldn't go through or if it did I wouldn't know. Now I now what. So here is my sample model.
I'll try rendering your model and see what the difference is.
Thanks Michael,
Attachments
room.skp
(104.07 KiB) Downloaded 909 times

Nick1
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

Hi Michael,
Here is a 5 minute rendering of the sample model you sent me. I might be wrong but I remember I read your answer in response to my question regarding how long it took for any of the images on your website to render, that it only took about a minute. Again, I might have misunderstood it, but if that is true, then it could be my computer, and I don't mind it if I have to wait 20 minutes to get similar results.
Aside from all this trial and error, please allow me to give my 5 cents. Maybe you are thinking about this already. It would be nice if you create a long detailed audio/video tutorial(s) on any of the images on your website. So you start by going through the right way of modeling for Reaylectron in Sketchup in detail, then follow with the reverse faces process and so on even to how you tweak the effects on the textures on wood furniture for instance. Since you will be having loads of ready material for Raylectron, it will be a great help for an average user to just watch the video( since the video example covers all the aspects) as many times as needed and do exactly the same thing or some variations here and there to see different effects. But mind you again that the audio/video tutorial needs to be quite detailed, in explaining for instance why you do one way over another, why path tracing is better than raytracing in some cases and show little renderings for comparison between the two modes in the tutorial video so the user can actually see the difference first before trying it on their own. Yes the video might be a long one but it would be well worth it and I can honestly tell you that I would have downloaded the video already and might even have purchased the software too since I would have already practiced on several sample models on my own following your step by step instructions in the tutorial. The easier and faster you make it for users to learn and work with the software as oppose to fighting with it, the better it is for the success of the software. I mentioned to you about my story with Sketchup. Their videos were extremely helpfull. I also find Raylectron to be a great fit for SU. There are number of great renderers like Indigo Renderer for instance which gives great results, however it is hard to work with and there are very few real video tutorials on it. Now compare that to Shaderlight Pro which is another plug-in for SU and they are selling like hotcake. It is easy to work with and loads and loads of audio/video tutorial. Now if Raylectron can have a great video tutorial with ready made materials included in the software, it would be a no brainer at $100.00. Hope i didn't give you a headache.
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Support »

oh I see! You have not set it to Glass and Transparent, and, some of the windows face on the outside is reversed. The round glass has no material. Here is your .skp modified and rendered. I removed the materials for the windows and assigned it to the group instead. I've put a background picture and set it not to cast shadows (sketchup entity info) and in Raylectron set it as Background so it does block the sunlight. I also added a wall where the camera is and put it in Layer1, and made is visible before render and set the X-Ray level to 1, so that you don't render using a missing wall. Here is a 4 minutes render...and your modified skp file...
room.png
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Support »

You are reading our minds Nick. We are making vids right now, we started a few days ago. They will be short, be very detailed, and one big one that will cover just about everything.

The more lights you have in your model, the faster the output converge. Outdoor scenes will render faster because there is more direct sunlight and less shadows. In a closed room, a point on a wall has to find it's way out!

Thanks for your feedback Nick. Really appreciate it.
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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

Hi Michael,
I am surprised. I checked all my windows and they all had glass material. I think I'll call you on Monday because I need to fully understand this since I am totally confused now.
I'll take a look at the modified file to see what you have changed. Thanks for the modified version. And please let Diane know that I'll be calling on Monday.
Have a great weekend,

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Re: How can I get reflection in the glass

Post by Nick1 »

Hi Michael,

Thank you for my modified model. I think I am getting it a bit at a time. You assigned pure white material to glass in SU and then within SU changed to Opacity to "0" and then in Raylectron Material Editor changed the transparency to "1" and selected the glass using the IOR button. Am I right? I did another sample model and placed a sofa in the room. Selected Path tracing with Map Toning checked. I tried it without Map Toning and it got dark. Of course I really don't know what Map Toning does. I'll ask all those questions when I call you tomorrow. So here is the image rendered for 30 minutes.
Talk to you soon and thanks again,
Attachments
room2.jpg

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