Environmental Map not working as expected

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Dknight
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Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Dknight »

Hey, I decided to play around with the environmental map the other day.

I found a nice grassy area i could use for my model. I tried to put it in and was left with a grey box.

I tried a few different images and got different results each time.
For example: http://www.cgtextures.com/texview.php?i ... tvntglouq3

When i insert this image, it first asks me if it is gamma (2.2) corrected.
If i click yes, it goes away, and i'm left with a grey box in the environmental map window.
If i click no, it goes away, and i'm left with a grey box in the environmental map window.
If i use different images, clicking no sometimes prompts me if it is some sort of skydome.

So i'm not entirely sure if im doing it wrong, or what's going on. Either way when i render it, it doesn't show anything for the surroundings.
Dknight
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Dknight »

I downloaded one of those HDR images that you linked in the other thread, and those worked as i would have expected. Why does a JPG not work the same way?
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

Any image types will work, it needs to be huge, say, 10000x5000. If you use a normal jpg, 800x600 then it's way too small.

Beside, you want to use HDR because of its high dynamic range, it's not limited like a jpg.
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Dknight
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Dknight »

The image i was using was 8000x1205.

i double sized it even higher than that, saved it as both a JPG and a TIFF. I still got a grey box instead of an image on both attempts.
So then i tried to open the HDR file in Photoshop. Saved it as a TIFF file (JPG was not an option) and then tried to load that instead. I got the same problem. It was a grey box.

So either i don't understand how it's working - or - i can't load the JPGs as backgrounds.
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

The height of the map needs to be half the width, so if you have 8000 width, it needs to be 4000 height. Also, depending on your camera position, you maybe looking at the ground or sky?

Doubling it will not make a difference. It has to be done on that resolution from the camera itself. You can't turn a 500x250 map into a 10000x5000 map.

The environment map is not a background. They are 360 degree maps, but not 360 degree panorama. They are made from 6 or 8 fish-eye lens shots (at 8mm or 10mm) over the horizon, stitched together using a special software, that's why they look far away and waved, but when loaded into Raylectron, they will appear normal.

There is no need to save the HDR as a jpg or tiff, Raylectron reads HDR.

The reason to use HDR as oppose to jpg is because it includes the real intensity of the sky, sun, and whatever else. As a jpg, those intensities are clamp to a range (0 to 255), but HDR can be as low as 0.00001 (or lower) and as high as 100000 (and higher) providing the perfect lighting in the render.

Can you post a screen shot of that 8000x1205 you try to use?
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Dknight
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Dknight »

I can attach them, but you've answered my question and told me what to do.

I'll need to use this image in sketchup as a background. It's not the same type of image as an environment map. The pixel requirement's is probably causing a problem as well. Now that i understand the requirements, i wont spend anymore time today on the environment map. It was not the correct answer to my problem (getting a background in). I'll be better off slapping this in the back of sketchup and telling it not to cast or recieve shadows.
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

oh, that's not going to work, it's a panorama!

It needs to look weird like this one...
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

Have you tried it using the Watermark option in the Render settings?
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

Perhaps this is what you need? Here is a SKP file with your lansdcape picture on a 360 degree background...
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Dknight »

I have not. But i just did.
It stretched the image vertically and did some weird stuff there. I'll have to play with it some.

it might be easiest for me to locate it in sketchup as a plane anyway.

Now i know how an environmental map works. Since i did not before, i wasn't getting what i was expecting from the output.

*edit, you posted as i was replying.
That's exactly what i think i'll be doing ;) Thanks for informing me on how the environmental maps work!
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

You are welcome. oh, and my last post is not only a screen shot, I've also included the Sketchup file below it.
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

One more thing, if you're going to use it as a background in Sketchup, mark the picture material as 'Background' in the Raylectron material editor, that way, the sun and the sky, or any lights will not reflect on it, nor will it block the sun or sky and produce shadows. Marking it as a background makes it 100% transparent for any kind of lights, while being visible. If that makes sense!
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Nick1
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Nick1 »

Thank you both. I can certainly use that background myself. :P
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

It's easy to make that background Nick. Create a new material with any image, then remember the image size, say it is 1200' wide x 35' height, then draw a cirlce with a radius of width/2π so that's 1200/6.283=191' so you draw a circle with radius=191', then you push/pull the circle to the same as the image height, so push/pull it by 35'

Next, delete the top and bottom so you are left with only the walls, then apply the material to the wall and bingo!

It works best on really, really wide images, like these...

http://www.jamesgordongallery.com/itook ... 2BPano.jpg

http://shimworld.files.wordpress.com/20 ... ama-wp.jpg

http://www.tranhungdaotrip.com/ImageHaL ... norama.jpg
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Nick1 »

Hi Michael,
Are you talking about making a cylinder and delete the top and bottom? Then we are left with just a vertical tube shape. Is that what you are talking about and if yes, then do you put your scene inside that circle?
Also I noticed the little box for wiremesh and XRay in Raylectron dialog where you can see the model in a transparent view. Can anything be done with these besides just seeing the model in transparent or wire mesh mode?
When do you think we'll have the ready made materials integrated?
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

Yes Nick, that's the way to do it. As long as the circumference/height is the same, you can make it as high as you need to cover the whole background.

v2.6 will have the ready texture, and we are at v2.57 right now. We've done many changes, one of which is to fix the lights so they are not aliased (staircase like).

I'm not sure what you mean about the wire mesh / Xray thing Nick?
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Nick1 »

Hi Michael,
Thanks for the info. I didn't quite understood the light issue. Here is what I meant.
Thanks,
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

I know what you were referring to Nick, I just didn't understand your question. What do you mean by "Can anything be done with these besides just seeing the model in transparent or wire mesh mode?"

I mean, they do just that. I use them to view through walls so I can position my camera to shot the interior from the exterior walls. Sometimes the Xray works better than wire mesh, it's just a preference.
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Nick1 »

Ok. So the use is basically to set up the interior shots. I thought that you set your views first by orbiting the model exterior and when you find a desired view form the outside using Sketchup transparency, then you can go to XRay Level box on the left side of the dialog and put in the number of wall layers. This is even better. Sorry for my limited brain cells. It would be nice if you could make a video showing how to use the XRay levels.
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

I didn't think about that! and yes, you could do it that way too and use an XRay Level of 1 since the cylinder is only one plane, or delete part of the cylinder, make it half!

It doesn't even need to be a cylinder anyway, it could be a rectangle too acting as a background. You could squeeze the cylinder so it's oval or whatever.

The XRay is just as you said, it skip the number of planes (XRAy Levels) from the camera. Maybe not a video but a diagram would work better. Let me make something.
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kclubz
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by kclubz »

Support wrote:It's easy to make that background Nick. Create a new material with any image, then remember the image size, say it is 1200' wide x 35' height, then draw a cirlce with a radius of width/2π so that's 1200/6.283=191' so you draw a circle with radius=191', then you push/pull the circle to the same as the image height, so push/pull it by 35'

Next, delete the top and bottom so you are left with only the walls, then apply the material to the wall and bingo!

It works best on really, really wide images, like these...

http://www.jamesgordongallery.com/itook ... 2BPano.jpg

http://shimworld.files.wordpress.com/20 ... ama-wp.jpg

http://www.tranhungdaotrip.com/ImageHaL ... norama.jpg
Hi Michael.
how would one go about this using the metric type of dimention, since the image width and height are in pixsels

did you save the image as jpeg or other extentions before using it as a material in SU

how did you come about the uv scale for the material in sketchup

I tried one of the links you posted above which was this one http://www.jamesgordongallery.com/itook ... 2BPano.jpg but could not get the right result

Would greatly appriciate if you could attach a sketchup file like the previous one you illustrated to Dknight with this image http://www.jamesgordongallery.com/itook ... 2BPano.jpg
thanks.
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

I do not use metric or imperial, I use the pixels number, no matter what unit of measures you use, you can always scale the panorama later.

As long as Sketchup can load the image, the extension is irrelevant.

The LA-Snow+Pano.jpg is 21068x1440 pixels wide. So we need to find the radius which is 21068/6.283 = 3353

So now, draw a circle on the ground which is 3353 in radius, it doesn't matter if it's inches, meters or whatever, just use your Sketchup default.

Now that you have that circle made, push/pull it by the height of the image which is 1440. Delete the top and bottom.

Now create a new texture and load LA-Snow+Pano.jpg and set the with to 21068 because it default to 1' or something. Now paint the inside wall and that's it.

Here is the model...
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by kclubz »

Hi Michael.
thanks for the illustration, I understand the whole explanations you made above, but, i am still having issues with the dimensions, because it doesn't correspond to mine. The radius dimension of 3353 you mention above is not similar to the radius of the cylinder in my SU which is 279' 5" for the simple template (feet and inches), and 85166.200mm for the architectural template (millimeter). I know the default template for SU is the simple template which comes in feet and inches although you said not to bother about the units but how come the radius seems different, I am using the architectural template (millimeter) and was wondering if the template in use has any serious impact to the dimensions.

Not just the cylinder radius but also the uv scaling. Going by your illustrations you said to make the width 21068 but the uv scale does not correspond to 21068 instead am having 1755' 8" for the width in simple template and 535127mm for architectural template.

I have attached the SU image files showing my points and hope you could still avail me the opportunity to really understand why this is happening .....thanks
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Last edited by kclubz on Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by Support »

Hi,

ok, what I meant by not to bother with the units is, to use the default units you use. For me, a radius of 3353 is in inches, and for you it might be in millimeters. When you click on the Circle tool and start making your circle, type in 3353 without anything else. Do not type in 3353cm for example. Then, push/pull your circle by 1440, that is, when you start push/pulling, type in the number 1440 and nothing else. Then in the material editor, set the width of the image to 21068 with no units. In mine, it's set to 1' but when I type in 21068 it converts it to feet, but that's because the default is inches.

Whatever units you use makes no difference as long as you enter all the numbers using the same units. So if you type a radius of 3353cm, make sure you set the circle height to 1440cm and the material width to 21068cm so everything is in the correct aspect. Then you can scale your circle to what ever size you want for your model.

I hope I made sense?
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Re: Environmental Map not working as expected

Post by kclubz »

Hi Michael.
Thanks for your time, i am now totally in control of the situation, I greatly appreciate it
you know, sometimes i wished i had your brain type.....lol
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